What did you do with your GRiSO today?

GRiSO Capo Posts : 1738 Join date : 2014-07-03

Well, it wasn’t today, but a few days ago.

Have been besieged by houseguests; no time to play in the Moto Grappa. Latest set left after breakfast, and more company comes in a few days, so I better get back down there to putz before it’s housecleaning time again.

And, naturally, what I do down there is a bit short of slapping a Cal 14 top end onto a GRiSO 12 bottom!

But it keeps me out of all sorts of trouble, and is fairly harmless.

The two pix show my latest mod. Pretty technical stuff there, so attempt this only after studying the manual.

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Anyway, I like ‘em.

Bill

Carlotto Posts : 35 Join date : 2015-07-05 Age : 52

Hey bill. I do t get what you mean, but i line your rear fender any reference for it ?
Thx by advance

GRiSO Capo Posts : 1738 Join date : 2014-07-03

jexmatex wrote:: Hey bill. I do t get what you mean, but i line your rear fender any reference for it ?
Thx by advance

Howdy.

Supposing you mean the hugger.

If so, it's from here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I like its looks, but, IMO, it does little real protection of shock, etc. For that, I use one of these: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Think theres a thread on those here somewhere.

Best from the top of Virginia,

Bill

Carlotto Posts : 35 Join date : 2015-07-05 Age : 52

Thxs Bill for you input Smile

Best from France ^^

Grignapoco Posts : 194 Join date : 2014-03-25

After two weeks of nagging sciatica I finally felt like a ride. Rode up to Miami AZ and stopped at a little grotto for some reflection.
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GRiSO Capo Posts : 10712 Join date : 2013-05-29 Age : 67

Well, I finally slipped some new shells into my lump today. New rod bolts, reassembled, filled with oil. Hit the button after priming with the plugs out, plugs back in and vroom!

Haven't ridden it yet but at least it isn't clanking any more. It's still louder than most later 8V's even after the rollerisation but at least the clank of death is gone.

Pete

Nibbio Posts : 528 Join date : 2014-04-10 Age : 70

Pete not sure if anyone has asked this b4 but ...why didn't Guzzi just start off with the rollerisation on the early 1200 scratch

Was it more expensive to manufacture or ...........

Biondino Posts : 286 Join date : 2013-10-19

A better question is, when they realized that the tappets had failure issues, why didn't they pre-emptively replace them with the rollers before they failed and wrecked engines?

Nibbio Posts : 528 Join date : 2014-04-10 Age : 70

WCB wrote:: A better question is, when they realized that the tappets had failure issues, why didn't they pre-emptively replace them with the rollers before they failed and wrecked engines?

That is a better question....

GRiSO Capo Posts : 361 Join date : 2014-09-02

Bill Hagan wrote:: Well, it wasn’t today, but a few days ago.

Have been besieged by houseguests; no time to play in the Moto Grappa. Latest set left after breakfast, and more company comes in a few days, so I better get back down there to putz before it’s housecleaning time again.

And, naturally, what I do down there is a bit short of slapping a Cal 14 top end onto a GRiSO 12 bottom!

But it keeps me out of all sorts of trouble, and is fairly harmless.

The two pix show my latest mod. Pretty technical stuff there, so attempt this only after studying the manual.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Anyway, I like ‘em.

Bill

Hey Bill, a nice little touch with the Italian flag stickers Thumbs Up

The old man cave is a great place to potter around and play with the man toys, as for the Cali 14 top end why bodge a bike that has a sweet engine already, Theres plenty of torque and power for me in the GRiSO, more interested in keeping her running reliable. Laughing

GRiSO Capo Posts : 904 Join date : 2015-05-16 Age : 72

Yeh, I like em too Bill, nothing wrong with cleaning,polishing and tithing him up.
Cheers

GRiSO Capo Posts : 10712 Join date : 2013-05-29 Age : 67

WCB wrote:: A better question is, when they realized that the tappets had failure issues, why didn't they pre-emptively replace them with the rollers before they failed and wrecked engines?

I have a theory about this. It's just a theory but I'll throw it out there.

Guzzi management had just about everything riding on the 8V motor. At that time they could not have envisioned the success that the V7 and its variants we're going to garner. The 8V was the great white hope and I wouldn't be surprised if the Piaggio management gave them some sort of ultimatum.

IMHO I think there never was a design flaw with the first iteration tappets. I think it was purely a manufacturing fault. Some, not all, of the early chilled cast iron tappets failed due to poor production practice. The tappets used in development bikes would all of been made to strict tolerance that was guaranteed and checked. Unfortunately, once they had proven the spec they were put out to tender and they probably took the lowest bidder.

Poor hardening, (Coupled with the over cooling issues.) led to failures and my guess is panic ensued!

The answer was to try an unproven and risky technology in the hope that the super-hard DLC coating would prevent failures while still allowing use of the main top end architecture. It didn't. In fact in certain markets it actually made things worse!

By now the hair-tearing would of become frenzied and I would guess a few heads rolled but it was realised by early 2010 that a radical solution was needed. They changed supplier for the tappets one more time but by 2010 they knew categorically that failures would continue, aided and abetted by the lousy service standards in most workshops world wide. Unfortunately the 8V isn't 'Stupid-Proof'!

Thing is they couldn't afford to call the problem out. It would of been the end of the company. So while the roller top end was being developed and trialled they kept sell img machines they KNEW were failure prone in certain circumstances. (That, if true, pisses me off a lot!) but the 'Smoking Gun' is there in the markings on the cylinder heads of post mid 2010 bikes which indicate that the valve springs are shimmed to cope with the extra mass of the roller lifters! They had a solution in mind, (One that seems to be 100% effective at the cost of a slight loss in overall efficiency.) and they KNEW that if they added the shims to bikes if they later failed it would reduce the cost of replacing the flats with a roller set up.

It took a further two years though for the roller system to be available and it was first rolled out, (Sorry, unintentional pun.) on the next great white hope, the Cali 1400.

While it seems they are now doing the semi-decent thing and offering an upgrade to people with a full service history, (And I have no problem with that.) it continues to gall me that there is a conspiracy of non disclosure. Nobody, especially us poor saps in the workshops at the *Pointy End* are told nothing more than you, the punters, are. It makes it very, very difficult and is one of the reasons I've invested so much time and effort personally to try and get to the bottom of the matter.

Do note that this is all supposition.i have no *Evidence* to support this theory but? If it walks like a duck? Quacks like a duck? It probably isn't a three toed sloth.....

Pete

Don Abbondio Posts : 240 Join date : 2014-10-07 Age : 61

Interesting stuff, what codes on the heads would indicate the shimming ?

Biondino Posts : 286 Join date : 2013-10-19

Pete Roper wrote:

WCB wrote:: A better question is, when they realized that the tappets had failure issues, why didn't they pre-emptively replace them with the rollers before they failed and wrecked engines?

I have a theory about this. It's just a theory but I'll throw it out there.

Guzzi management had just about everything riding on the 8V motor. At that time they could not have envisioned the success that the V7 and its variants we're going to garner. The 8V was the great white hope and I wouldn't be surprised if the Piaggio management gave them some sort of ultimatum.

IMHO I think there never was a design flaw with the first iteration tappets. I think it was purely a manufacturing fault. Some, not all, of the early chilled cast iron tappets failed due to poor production practice. The tappets used in development bikes would all of been made to strict tolerance that was guaranteed and checked. Unfortunately, once they had proven the spec they were put out to tender and they probably took the lowest bidder.

Poor hardening, (Coupled with the over cooling issues.) led to failures and my guess is panic ensued!

The answer was to try an unproven and risky technology in the hope that the super-hard DLC coating would prevent failures while still allowing use of the main top end architecture. It didn't. In fact in certain markets it actually made things worse!

By now the hair-tearing would of become frenzied and I would guess a few heads rolled but it was realised by early 2010 that a radical solution was needed. They changed supplier for the tappets one more time but by 2010 they knew categorically that failures would continue, aided and abetted by the lousy service standards in most workshops world wide. Unfortunately the 8V isn't 'Stupid-Proof'!

Thing is they couldn't afford to call the problem out. It would of been the end of the company. So while the roller top end was being developed and trialled they kept sell img machines they KNEW were failure prone in certain circumstances. (That, if true, pisses me off a lot!) but the 'Smoking Gun' is there in the markings on the cylinder heads of post mid 2010 bikes which indicate that the valve springs are shimmed to cope with the extra mass of the roller lifters! They had a solution in mind, (One that seems to be 100% effective at the cost of a slight loss in overall efficiency.) and they KNEW that if they added the shims to bikes if they later failed it would reduce the cost of replacing the flats with a roller set up.

It took a further two years though for the roller system to be available and it was first rolled out, (Sorry, unintentional pun.) on the next great white hope, the Cali 1400.

While it seems they are now doing the semi-decent thing and offering an upgrade to people with a full service history, (And I have no problem with that.) it continues to gall me that there is a conspiracy of non disclosure. Nobody, especially us poor saps in the workshops at the *Pointy End* are told nothing more than you, the punters, are. It makes it very, very difficult and is one of the reasons I've invested so much time and effort personally to try and get to the bottom of the matter.

Do note that this is all supposition.i have no *Evidence* to support this theory but? If it walks like a duck? Quacks like a duck? It probably isn't a three toed sloth.....

Pete

Makes perfect sense to me. Unfortunately for me, that no matter what goes on with the damn things, I am enamored by them. I still wouldn't trade the GRiSO or the Stelvio for anything. The bottom line is that they are still incredible machines. When the Stelvio engine finally needs to be rebuilt, I'll probably do that rather than get rid of the thing. If it turns out that the GRiSO needs extensive work from this, I'm positive Jacquie will want to do it. I started mentioning that maybe she should trade it in for a new one and I didn't even get the sentence out of my mouth and she said "nothing doing". Smile

GRiSO Capo Posts : 10712 Join date : 2013-05-29 Age : 67

There are four update kits. A,B,C & D.

D only applies to Sport 1200.

Pre 2010, A5 and early A8 motors require the C kit. This is the one that includes the head gaskets, valve spring shims and seals, manifold gaskets, plastic unicorn and xylophone. OK, it doesn't include the last two.

From somewhere in the middle of 2010 they started adding the shims, (I think this coincided with the last flat tappet change but can't really remember.) and for these engines you need the B kit which is an easy swap, the heads stay on. B kit engines have a drill mark in the paint near the manufacturing date stamp. This is simply a shiny dot in the paint but is clearly visible. Mark's bike is a B kit bike, I'll take photos when we rollerise it.

The A kit is the same as the B kit apart from the fact it is for the later engines with the 'Floating' valve covers with the thicker neoprene gasket between the rocker cover and the cam box rather than the tube and o-ring used on the earlier engines. Due to that change there is no need for other identifying marks and those engines don't need the valve shims etc.

Pete

PS, I'm off to bed but I'll offer my opinion on your post a bit later Doug, when I wake up at 3.00AM, like I always fucking do! Grrrrrrr.

Don Abbondio Posts : 240 Join date : 2014-10-07 Age : 61

Is it probable that the late Sports, mines a '13, will have flat tappets ?

Biondino Posts : 214 Join date : 2013-11-22 Age : 52

Pete Roper wrote:: PS, I'm off to bed but I'll offer my opinion on your post a bit later Doug, when I wake up at 3.00AM, like I always fucking do! Grrrrrrr.

It's 3:38am Pete, wake up! Basketball

GRiSO Capo Posts : 10712 Join date : 2013-05-29 Age : 67

Tolle09 wrote:: Is it probable that the late Sports, mines a '13, will have flat tappets ?

ALL 1200 Sport-8V's are flat tappet.

Pete

GRiSO Capo Posts : 10712 Join date : 2013-05-29 Age : 67

WRT Doug's comments on the 8V? They are very close to mirroring mine. I like almost everything about it. From its simplicity and ease of maintenance all the way through to the way it performs. I think the entire motive unit and driveline is superb for a road bike. It has more than adequate power and the fact that it is used in so many different platforms just goes to show what a flexible unit it is?

I've always liked SOHC engines, they have always seemed to me to be a decent compromise between ease of maintenance and lower reciprocating weight in the valve train. The Hi-Cam design used by Guzzi is just another charming bit of oddball quirkiness.

From here I think the next generation of power plants from Noale will almost certainly be 'Water' cooled, more powerful and if the Capponord 1200 is anything to go by completely devoid of character! Luckily I expect that parts for my G8 will be available for as long as I am able to ride it. For me it is as close to the perfect motorbike as makes no odds. I won't be changing my aliegence any time soon and while I'm happy for time and technology to march on and I steadfastly refuse to turn into one of the sad, ranting, dinosaurs who say 'Guzzi hasn't made a decent motorbike since......' (Insert date of first heart bypass operation or rectal prolapse here!) and will be interested in the technological advancements it is the still raw and slightly unfinished nature of the 8V that gives it such visceral charm.

Pete

Don Abbondio Posts : 6086 Join date : 2014-03-13 Age : 69

Good theory Pete, me likey - but then I am expert in not very much! The engine in the 1200 Sport is the A7, I believe. What the difference is, fucknose.

I should be asleep but the sleep fairies failed to deliver again. May have something to do with a big fatty meal last night, surrounded by copious amount of black beer. Farts are awesome though!

GRiSO Capo Posts : 1785 Join date : 2015-02-02 Age : 63

You know your getting old when your dreams get drier and your farts get wetter

GRiSO Capo Posts : 10200 Join date : 2013-09-30

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:: The engine in the 1200 Sport is the A7, I believe. What the difference is, fucknose.

Different cams.

The Sports are also geared differently.

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Biondino Posts : 286 Join date : 2013-10-19

You know, while up at the dealer picking up Jacquie's GRiSO this weekend, I was looking long at the Capo Rally. I want to like it. It seems to be a really nice bike, but I just can't bring myself to even ride the thing. One of the things I love about the Guzzi's and the Stelvio is the ease of maintenance and I'm sure the Capo lacks the character of the Stelvio. The character of the Stelvio is most endearing to me. The motor is engaging, the handling way better than it should be.

I'm sure the Capo is a very competent motorcycle, but I find that I just don't care. There are plenty of competent motorcycles. If that was all that was important to me, I'd by a Yamaha Super Tenere. Unfortunately for me, the Guzzi V twin just "does it" for me.

I love my Ambo, Jacquie's V1000 Cafe', the Ballabio all for different reasons, but the Guzzi 8v truly is a wonderful thing. Guzzi got me, and there's nothing to be done for it.

GRiSO Capo Posts : 10712 Join date : 2013-05-29 Age : 67

The Cappo is an unholy prick of a thing to work on and riding one is like being beaten with an over-cooked cabbage leaf. They are fast as and handle well and you can play with the suspension and tri map and TC etc. but I really find them hugely uninteresting. They aren't a bad bike, just not for me. How they could design something as spectacular as the V4 and then something as boring as the Cappo I have no bloody idea!

Pete

Nibbio Posts : 569 Join date : 2014-06-21

Finished putting the Penske shock on (and getting the airbox back on and reconnecting various hoses and what not. Whew!).
Only got to ride it around the block; initial impression is that it feels firmer but not as harsh over bumps - and this without changing any of the settings it was delivered with. So many adjustments...
The additional height (12mm) is noticeable both visibly in the way the bike sits and how it feels sitting on it. Turns quicker.

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