GRiSO 850 relays and starting fix

Hi all,

Ive been having the classic startus interuptus issues (will only start when battery is just off the charger or after a recent ride).

Ive seen the two main fixes shown here (upgraded fused link direct from starter relay to +) and the other version (the extra relay down near the starter).

Im not confident with electrics so i thought id try the upgraded link to the relay first!

That said i cant work out which relay and wire is the correct one? - the 850 relays appear wired differently and dont look the same as the 1100? (compared to the thisoldtractor schematic)

Any help is much appreciated

Here are the relays - third from front appears different also?


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Looks like "a" fix has been attempted with the 2nd relay from the right. Look at the yellow wire - this is the one the startus interruptus fix connects to.

Before you go much further, check several things:
- the 1st is the main earthing point under the plastic cover for the starter motor, this may be loose or corroded;
- Move the main earthing point to one of the clutch housing bolts - this will be a better position as the original mounting stud is not a great one

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:

Looks like "a" fix has been attempted with the 2nd relay from the right. Look at the yellow wire - this is the one the startus interruptus fix connects to.


Before you go much further, check several things:
- the 1st is the main earthing point under the plastic cover for the starter motor, this may be loose or corroded;
- Move the main earthing point to one of the clutch housing bolts - this will be a better position as the original mounting stud is not a great one

Thanks for the advice Tony - i will check the earth tomorrow.

Regarding the yellow wire - i had thought that might be the case but it appears to be the original harness wire (not a additional wire) and following back to the positive battery terminal there doesnt appear to be an additional wire?

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What battery are you running? If recently replaced? What was in it before?

Pete Roper wrote:

What battery are you running? If recently replaced? What was in it before?

Hey Pete - its this one motobatt MBTX16U

Says it is 250 CCA .. forget the previous one but was physically smaller than this

16 amp hour is too small. Use of a marginal battery of lower CCA, (And most of the claimed CCA’s are shit.) for any time leads to burnt contacts on relays and the solenoid.

The problem we have in Oz is that nobody sells a 20AH battery of the right dimensions any more so the best we can get in LA is 18 AH as far as I know.

In all honesty I think the best we can do is go to LiFe. But if your relay or solenoid contacts are already burnt the bigger CCA battery is unlikely to help.

I recently posted Julian Franck's startus interuptus solution from Gambalunga, parts 1 & 2, on the MGCoVs FB page, in the Files section. Worth checking out.

Motoguzzimackers wrote:

I recently posted Julian Franck's startus interuptus solution from Gambalunga, parts 1 & 2, on the MGCoVs FB page, in the Files section. Worth checking out.

Any chance of posting it here? I went looking through their files section and couldn't find it, thankfully it's only 2 days since your post (s) so I could scroll down...and still not be able to down load the jpeg.

Maybe it's just me, but faceplant sucks as a future respurce.

Motoguzzimackers wrote:

I recently posted Julian Franck's startus interuptus solution from Gambalunga, parts 1 & 2, on the MGCoVs FB page, in the Files section. Worth checking out.

Thanks ! I can see your post on there but having the same issue with Facebook - can't see it!

Pete Roper wrote:

16 amp hour is too small. Use of a marginal battery of lower CCA, (And most of the claimed CCA’s are shit.) for any time leads to burnt contacts on relays and the solenoid.

The problem we have in Oz is that nobody sells a 20AH battery of the right dimensions any more so the best we can get in LA is 18 AH as far as I know.

In all honesty I think the best we can do is go to LiFe. But if your relay or solenoid contacts are already burnt the bigger CCA battery is unlikely to help.

Yep went through quite a bit of hassle just to get the one that's in there now. I wish I had just got a lithium one in the first place!

@motoguzzimackers here's the docs you posted. Looks good but no idea how to do this on the GRiSO!


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That’s a nice solution. I hadn’t considered such a thing but there again I’ve never needed it.

8V models don't have the pre-setting sockets. You would need to cut/modify the loom.

In my VERY humble opinion,
Forget all this crap,
and get a Bosch starter/solenoid.

Problem solved. I am speaking from experience.

What? One of the old type used on ‘70’-80’s bikes? Considerably less cranking torque and just as prone to scorched solenoid contacts. Also they’re all thirty or more years old and won’t tackle the underlying problem.

It's a simple solution. Install the MPH fix (or your own DIY version), and maintain your battery. Do not skimp on your battery. Do NOT install a cheap battery. Don't be that Guzzi owner.

Simples.

Pete Roper wrote:

What? One of the old type used on ‘70’-80’s bikes? Considerably less cranking torque and just as prone to scorched solenoid contacts. Also they’re all thirty or more years old and won’t tackle the underlying problem.

No, one of the newer ones. They're also used on some cars..Got it from EME.

I've been through all of this on my 8V Valeo OEM, and as soon as I replaced it problems disappeared.

This problem has been going on forever.

YMMV.

Interesting, could be a good substitute for the old Valeo starter, @motoman do you have a link for that Bosch starter, and was it a straight swap install?

Breva has same problem. Same loom most likely. I made this loom extension, same relay, no cut wires, problem solved. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Pete Roper wrote:

That’s a nice solution. I hadn’t considered such a thing but there again I’ve never needed it.

Comes on my 1200 Sport (2007) - doesn't help if your battery is not good enough, just stop sthe voltage to the ECU dropping below what it thinks it needs

Speedfrog wrote:

Interesting, could be a good substitute for the old Valeo starter, @motoman do you have a link for that Bosch starter, and was it a straight swap install?

Straight swap on my 1200 8V..

BOSCH 05730730.     2006- on...

The Bosch Part number may have been superseded by: (#97729R)

Good info thanks. I’ll see if they’re available here in Oz.

I made up the relay bypass. Works fine but hasn't fixed the issue unfortunately. Looks like I'll be going to a lithium....
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850-Nero wrote:

I made up the relay bypass. Works fine but hasn't fixed the issue unfortunately. Looks like I'll be going to a lithium....

I am sorry to hear this. But IMHO, trying to overcome the problem with more battery power is not the answer. I think there's something inherently wrong with the Valeo Starter/Solenoid, possibly the lubricant drying up. You should not need extreme power to start the bike. I hope you will try the Bosch Starter before you go out and buy a Lithium battery. THEN go buy a lithium battery. They are very good batteries. I prefer Anti-Gravity.

Oz1200Guzzi wrote:

Pete Roper wrote:

That’s a nice solution. I hadn’t considered such a thing but there again I’ve never needed it.

Comes on my 1200 Sport (2007) - doesn't help if your battery is not good enough, just stop sthe voltage to the ECU dropping below what it thinks it needs

The capacitor & diode upgrade/fix certainly straightened out my 2008 1200 Sport.All three of my Guzzis have the same big Shorai batterys & Shorai chargers but only the Sport is the one that developed the "click/no start" syndrome lately unless you charge up the battery to the max just before you start it.Bought a new Valeo starter from EME just to eliminate the starter as a potential issue(you can't check the solenoid contacts on the original Bosch starter),swapped batteries around between scooters,Sport already had heavy duty relay bypass when I got it(2017,24k miles,29k now).Now it will sit for weeks without any charger on it at all & cranks right up absolutely perfectly,could not be better. I installed the fix on my Norge & GRiSO also because like you say it looks like a good idea to keep voltage up at ECU & the plugs are already there.Guzzi should have installed them from factory to avoid a lot of pain & grief but oh well,interesting lesson learned.