GRiSO Out of order - Another battery story

Before purchasing a brand new battery and spend some more euros, I wanted to ask here if I have the exact assumption. 

I have a one year old Yausa battery ref. YTX20CH-BS I did prepare myself as per the manufacturer recommandations.

I don't use my beloved GRiSO very often but from time to time I charge the battery with an optimate.

Few days ago, I was not able to start the engine. Could hear the relay clic but nothing else. Tried with the battery booster. Nothing. 

Did check the fuse, cleaned and greased the battery connectors etc. They are ok.

Took out the battery from the bike, charged it for 14 hours. Voltage was above 13 V. Yes !

Reinstalled the battery in the bike. Power on. Kill switch off. Pushed the start button and ... nothing. Oh No ! Tried again with the side stand folded just in case. Still No.

But what happened is I could see on the dashboard that the voltage dropped down almost instantaneously to 9.5 Volt instead of being at a nice minimum of 12.5 V 

To me it looks like to battery is out of order even though it has only one year old but according to the experience here in the forum there might be another explanation. 

Richard, Did you check that your earth wire connection behind the starter cover is clean and corrosion free? If it is you could try a jumper wire from the live connection of the starter solenoid and touch it against the positive pole of the battery, the ignition must be turned on.
Best to use a length of wire with a spade connector crimped to one end, remove the starter motor cover and then remove the positive wire spade connector from the solenoid so that you can fit the spade connector of your jumper wire in its place. Now touch the other end against the +pole on your battery.

If the bike don’t start, I would suspect your battery is the fault and if it does start, this will indicate you are losing juice somewhere along the circuit and may need to do the startus interrupt-us mod that is well documented here if you do a search.

It's good that you cleaned and greased the battery terminals.
Guzzi Cat has listed the best way to ensure the battery and starter are up to snuff, eliminating Luigis flakey wiring. Here is a couple more tests.


Take your Voltmeter and connect the Negative lead to the chassis in some sort of semi permanent manner, like a clip to a bolt.

Put the red lead on the battery Positive, it should read about 13 Volts
Push start (or touch the wire as per Guzzi Cat) then see what it reads.
If it drops down to say 9 or less don't just assume the battery is shot.

Next step, put the red lead on the Negative post of the battery, it should read zero but what happens when you press Start, does it stay at zero or go downscale indicating a bad ground connection.

Thank you Guzzi Cat and Kiwi_Roy. You are very helpfull

I’ll do what you said and see what happen.

BTW the wire from the Start Relay to the solenoid is woefully undersize on the 1100, I suggest you replace it with something decent like a 14 gauge, I did that on mine and now it starts cranking in less than 1/3 the time taken before. The starter solenoid draws about 50 Amps as it pulls the core into place.
once in place it drops down to about 10 Amps

Didn't have time to check it yet. I'll do that tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice but I am not so sure I am skilled enough to make this modification. 

What is 14 gauge wire ?

I found the following data sheet from Moto Guzzi. It is in french but I made a quick web translation.

Did you know this mod. Is it in line with the Start us Interr-uptus topic ?

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Richard, I am not sure about the capacitor & diode fix for the 1100 model but I think that even with this modification you still may need to run a wire direct from the battery to the relay that is referred to as startus inter-uptus.

Because most of the models that are referred to in the Data Sheet as being definitely solved such as my GRiSO 8v still need the startus interuptous fix.

I have added a link to Kiwi Roy’s fix above because it is very detailed for the 1100 model that you own. I am sure Roy will be along to guide you.

As for 14 gauge wire, just google for the metric equivalents.

Got it Guzzi Cat.

FYI, found that 14 Gauge is ø 1,63 mm.

Sorry I Think the equivalent of 14 AWG would be 2mm2, even 1.5mm would be good
I don't know what size was there before but it's tiny.

Why do they use such small wire?
I believe they think the solenoid only draws 10 Amps, I measured 50.

My 07 came with the Start relay direct connected to the battery but the wire was tiny. Later 8 Valves have the start relay fed from the ignition switch which is even worse IMHO they have added extra relays at times but still not reliable.
The later 8 valves should have their relays wired direct as well or eventually they will fail

I'm not quite sure what they are doing with the capacitor diode nonsense in the French article, I think they may be trying to fool the ECU into thinking the Voltage is really more than it is, I suspect it also drops the Voltage by 0.6 through the diode perhaps making it worse not better but I would need to see the details.

If they were to draw the starter solenoid correctly they might realize what the problem is and finally fix it, I won't hold my breath.

There is another technical data sheet from Moto Guzzi that is more in relation with the 14 gauge / 2mm2 wire modification. My GRiSO has already this modification done.

MG recommend this due to difficulty to start the engine when warm/hot.

Here is attached the document. I guess it is self explanatory. I can translate if needed.

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Did some testing as per your recommandations.

Actually I didn’t have time to start the engine directly from the battery with a wire as Guzzi Cat said, because it was not possible.

The dashboard light fade away within few minutes, then went completely dark and the service warning appeared.

I could only measured that the voltage was down to 9.3 volt between the frame and battery as per Kiwi_Roy procedure.

Conclusion, I’ll buy a new battery and hope this will solve the problem.

I am really exhausted - polite mode - with the battery on this 1100 GRiSO. 3 batteries on 5 years. Really the weak point.

Make sure you put the battery into service correctly and buy the correct one. A YTX 20 CH-BS not a 16 Which is dimensionally identical and cheaper.

If the battery just has the acid flung in and is then pressed into service it will warp the plates and there is a good chance it will blurt acid out all over your bike when started. Read the instructions.

Pete

Richard wrote:

3 batteries on 5 years. Really the weak point.

I live in a harsh environment...heat, not that great for batteries.
I acquired my 1100 new in 2011 (left over stock) and I am on my 2nd battery for this bike, so it's two batteries in 8 years so far.
I had my 09 for 3 years...never had a battery issue
Had a 13 for 3 years as well...same, no issue.
My 17 is going strong.
So in 4 Grisos since January 2010, I only bought one battery. Me likey...

Of course, I used the bikes everyday and rotate them throughout the week but I put them on the tender if one is gonna stay in the garage more than a week.
Sounds like you have a power source draining your battery...

@pete: Yes. I only use MG recommend battery and prepare them as per the instructions.

@grisonut: I share your view on this. I don’t use my GRiSO very often, I have another bike for my everyday commuting, and I haven’t an easy access to a power point next to my garage (old building) to connect a tender permanently. That might be the causes. Hope I have not a power drain

mine, albeit not a GRiSO, has a power drain. I've looked, but never found it.
I think it might be common. I blame the clock, but I have no tangible proof  
I work away from home for extended periods (my next trip is for 3 months   ) and originally went down the battery tender route, but didn't like leaving it there plugged into the mains power, 'unattended'....

So I just lift the seat and pull the 2 green (30 amp) fuses the day before I leave.
When I get home, fuses go back in, re- set the clock, and away we go.
simples.

That’s an interesting one. I’ll try that

Richard wrote:

@grisonut: I share your view on this. I don’t use my GRiSO very often, I have another bike for my everyday commuting, and I haven’t an easy access to a power point next to my garage (old building) to connect a tender permanently. That might be the causes. Hope I have not a power drain

Oh man...if you don't use the bike often enough without the possibility of hooking up a tender then I'm not surprised.
You won't be able to keep a battery at full charge. Pull the dash fuse or disconnect zee battery.
Sois prudent mon Grand...

The cludge that was available some years back for some models, was simply a diode and capacitor. This was to allow the capacitor to charge up to the highest running voltage, less 0.6 volts from the diode forward voltage. This diode also prevented the capacitor from discharging when the battery voltage went low, as in when you are trying to start the engine. It gave a signal to the ECU that the battery voltage is "good" as the ECU can make a decision that the battery is not good enough for a start and can abort to process.

This is all well and good when the battery is good or even moderately good, though when a battery starts to die, there is a no start situation.

I believe in later models (2007 on, but I could be wrong) there was compensation built into the ECUs to do just this, but I might have my facts wrong again.

@Pascal: Unfortunately you are right. Merci pour tes encouragements.

@Tony: Exactly. See extract of Moto Guzzi technical services posted above.

Yes the ECU has a slight drain
The Voltage reg also uses a bit
If you have a USB power supply they draw some as well even with nothing plugged in.
Pulling the main fuses should do it, the battery should hold its charge all winter that way.

I don't like leaving a tender on, someone suggested powering it from the garage light that way it would just get a few hours a week.

Thxs for the advice 

Kiwi_Roy wrote:

I don't like leaving a tender on, someone suggested powering it from the garage light that way it would just get a few hours a week.

I use a timer, programmed to supply power to the charger for 15 minutes, 4 times a day. I've done this for years with no known problems.

Pete Roper wrote:

Make sure you put the battery into service correctly and buy the correct one. A YTX 20 CH-BS ...
Read the instructions.

Received the new Yuasa YTX 20 CH-BS battery.

After the electrolyte filled in the battery and wait for approx. 2 hours would an optimate (0.6A / 12V) be sufficient for the initial battery charge (i.e. 10 hours mini)?

I have a doubt on this one.

It will be fine. In my experience, a higher capacity charger only supplies a similar amount on a new battery.