Defective roller kit upgrade

So a new roller kit arrived yesterday for my GRiSO and was installed by the dealer today to replace the original worn out flat tappet assembly (it only had approx. 10,100kms). Immediately after installation, the top of the right cylinder starts making a loud tapping noise after the bike was started. The roller assembly was pulled out and examined. It was shown to have been machined improperly with clear signs of wear (slight polishing marks of the surface) due to minute unevenness of the cam roller (as I recall from the service tech.). Additionally, the rollers were too tight ie. not spinning as easily as they should.

What the fuck Moto Guzzi?!!? Get your shit quality control under control or reimburse me for the money I spent on insurance this riding season. The bike will have been in the shop for at least 2 f-ing months, perhaps longer due to your low level of QC. Took 3 hours off of work to run out to the dealer to pick the bike up prior to leaving town for a few weeks only to be given this bad news. Can't tell you how pissed off I am at you MG / Piaggio!

I hate to say it but I am having some serious doubts about the quality of current Guzzies. I hope it is unfounded or proven such because I still love the bike!

Aaargghh!

Ummmm? Was the assembly installed *Dry* relying on the meagre quantity of assembly lube to keep it sweet? I plan on flooding the cambox and filling the weirs at the very least before spinning it on the starter with the plugs out for at least 30 seconds to get stuff moving before starting mine. Its what I did with the Stelvio I got roped in to doing. Seemed like common sense to me.

Rollers will almost certainly be tight when new. Doubly so if unlubricated. Not saying there isn't a problem but if there is it would be the first case I'd heard of. Were the valve clearances re-checked be fore the top end was torn off again?

Pete

Thanks for the information Pete. A new kit is being expedited to the dealer next week. I will run your questions and thoughts by the tech. before I leave town.

I'm not sure about the valve clearances being checked prior to taking the top off again but the tech. did mention that the noises the bike made upon startup were not present prior to the tappet kit replacement.  Fwiw - the valves were adjusted in late june as part of the 10k service and I have not ridden much since then.

They had three additional sets of eyes and ears on the issue trying to pinpoint the cause of the prob. as well as spending a good amount  of time on the phone with other Guzzi dealers and their parts distributor in the states trying to find out if they had heard of this issue. One guy was some kind of troubleshooting expert for another dealer and I believe it was he who first spotted the wear and surface irregularity when asked to take a look. They were surprised by this as they have never seen nor heard of this happening before. Will update as we continue on...

Cheers

The valve clearances will invariably alter when the camboxes are replaced which is what you do when you swap from flats to rollers. The two designs are all not only machined differently but individual components will be of slightly different lengths. It isn't a simple un-bolt and bolt on another part scenario, the bike has to be re-serviced and tuned after the swap.

I'm sure the blokes working on it realised this, its just that I'm surprised that there was a problem that's all. I have so far done a grand total of one swap! It just seemed straightforward and worked. The roller set-up does sound different to the flat tappet one. I'll be interested in hearing what the outcome is on this so I can be forewarned if I have issues.

Pete

I don't know how good your dealer is but I'd be suspicious...
Sounds like they bolted the kit dry.
I mean, for that kit to fail upon start up like that, it would have to be fundamentally flawed and the mechanic would be able to tell visually before install, no?

I hope it gets all sorted out for you.

Grisonut wrote:

I don't know how good your dealer is but I'd be suspicious...

If it were the Gords at Chiliwack, I'd be surprised...

Thanks for your feedback guys.

I guess I am a bit concerned by the possibility that the kits may have been installed dry with the meager amount of lube Guzzi may provide as Pete mentions. I am not sure at this point if that was the case though. Why would Guzzi not fully advise all of their dealers to properly lube the roller assembly prior to starting the bike when doing a conversion such as this? I too would be surprised if the upgrade was done that way knowing what I know now thanks to you all. I trust the service technician and will have to speak with the Gords in Chilliwack about this. Yeah, you are right Steak, that is where I purchased the bike. My worry now is that if that turns out to be the case, has any damage already been done to the left cylinder roller kit which may not manifest for a while possibly after the bike is out of warranty in late Oct.?



Additionally, according to the service tech., Guzzi will not cover cleaning the oil sump and strainer, backflushing the oil cooler and checking the oil pump as part of the upgrade service. That will cost another $450.00 to 500.00 for the labor which I do not have at the moment. This has my stomach in a bit of a knot.

My kit was greased inside. I left is as it was and dropped it in. Until now I think 7000km, no problem

Well - that's good to hear. Did you notice anything different in terms of how the bike rides or how it sounds?

I have heard it is a bit quieter and that the power hit at 5000-5500 rpm is no longer there? Can you verify that Paul.?

Thxs.

The roller cam has to have essentially the same profile as the flat tappet cam otherwise they would of had to change the map, they haven't. Performance should essentially be very close to the same, the only likely noticeable change will probably be a slight, maybe not noticeable, drop,in power, (The roller kit is heavier than the flat kit.)

As for relying on a small amount of assembly lube for start up lubrication? Well the things are supposed to run in an oil bath. Why wouldn't you ensure the trough was full before firing it up? To me that is a real first year apprentice type thing???

Pete

Thanks Pete - not too concerned about a barely perceptible loss of power, she has enough as far as I am concerned. If I need more I'll shed a few pounds to compensate and swap out the exhaust for a lighter one etc...

Will provide an update when I get her back at the beginning of Oct..

I didn't notice a performance change, but there were a few month between driving the old and the new cams.
I suppose I bathed the whole in oil after mounting. I can't remember.

Hey Pete................ I have a question for you and all.... What does a GRiSO tenni have for a valve train from the factory?
Also have ridden with other 8 valve Grisos and seems like there are some extreme differences in audible sounds those mills make.......... ie have ridden with a few that have a whirring sound ( kinda like gear drives ) sounds very cool.... the Tenni doesn't make those sounds at all.

What's up? PS. What's the 2015 GRiSO have for changes in their engine internals?

Cheers.

Early, as in pre about 2010, 8V's didn't have their cams shimmed for end float. This meant that the camshafts flogged back and forth in the camboxes which makes a godawful clattering noise. This movement also seems in some bikes to exacerbate the noise of the spinning tappets which manifests itself as a sort of 'Cyclic Rattle' which upsets people who are only happy when they are shovelling sand into thier 'Ginas.

After the addition of the shims in 2010 the top ends generally became considerably quieter but he motor was still noisy. The primary timing system is gear driven and the idler shaft spins in rolling element bearings both of which are quite noisy and the cam chains whirr.

With the swap to roller tappets a lot of the top end rattler were diminished but the rollers themselves make yet another noise. The camshafts now use a preloaded Belvile washer arrangement to prevent cam end float which is effective but I'd guess is very effective at sapping power.

At the end of the day the 8V is just a noisy motor. Some, like mine, are truly horrendous! People on Japanese machines have told me to take it to a mechanic as it's obviously got something horribly wrong with it! thing is it's reliable as an anvil and never goes wrong it just makes a noise like a cement mixer full of bricks! Others are quite quiet although none of them are as quiet as say my Mana or a modern water cooled four.

Pete

Pete Roper wrote:

Early, as in pre about 2010, 8V's didn't have their cams shimmed for end float. This meant that the camshafts flogged back and forth in the camboxes which makes a godawful clattering noise. This movement also seems in some bikes to exacerbate the noise of the spinning tappets which manifests itself as a sort of 'Cyclic Rattle' which upsets people who are only happy when they are shovelling sand into thier 'Ginas.

After the addition of the shims in 2010 the top ends generally became considerably quieter but he motor was still noisy. The primary timing system is gear driven and the idler shaft spins in rolling element bearings both of which are quite noisy and the cam chains whirr.

With the swap to roller tappets a lot of the top end rattler were diminished but the rollers themselves make yet another noise. The camshafts now use a preloaded Belvile washer arrangement to prevent cam end float which is effective but I'd guess is very effective at sapping power.

At the end of the day the 8V is just a noisy motor. Some, like mine, are truly horrendous! People on Japanese machines have told me to take it to a mechanic as it's obviously got something horribly wrong with it! thing is it's reliable as an anvil and never goes wrong it just makes a noise like a cement mixer full of bricks! Others are quite quiet although none of them are as quiet as say my Mana or a modern water cooled four.

Pete

Thanks Pete............... so if I understand you correctly, What I'm hearing is cam chain whirr which appears to be present in an /09 but not in the newer engines?? .... weird!

Cheers.

Maybe, maybe not. It could be any or all of the above! unless it starts making a serious clacking noise and the valve clearances open up a lot don't worry, just cane the piss out of it!

Pete

Pete Roper wrote:

Early, as in pre about 2010, 8V's didn't have their cams shimmed for end float. This meant that the camshafts flogged back and forth in the camboxes which makes a godawful clattering noise. This movement also seems in some bikes to exacerbate the noise of the spinning tappets which manifests itself as a sort of 'Cyclic Rattle' which upsets people who are only happy when they are shovelling sand into thier 'Ginas.
Pete

Stop it Pete!! I am laughing like an idiot!!!!!!

Is a Gina the same as a lady garden ?

I believe that GRiSO, a Tenni, is at Valley Moto in Chilliwack. Big Gord asked me have a listen to it a couple of weeks back. Holy crap the engine was emitting a gawd awful squealing sound at idle and just off idle with the new roller box installed. It was loud enough to make me want to cover my ears. He was scratching his head as to what was causing this to happen. He put a second new unit new in and it did the same. I believe the last time I talked to him Guzzi asked him to put all the original parts back in and see if the noise went away.
The only thing I noticed about the roller cam box unit was how stiff it was to turn over the cam due to the belville washer preload. I could barely turn the cam over by hand. That seemed very strange to me and it would definitely suck up power. I saw the offending unit with the valve cover off and there was no lack of lubrication. I'm not sure what the status of the bike is but I can definitely say you have the bike in the hands of a master. Gord has to be one of the best around. He has been servicing my bikes since my first Guzzi an '02 LeMans (4 others since) and his workmanship is first class. Not only that but he is extremely fair about his charges, I have known him to spend a fair amount of time trying to diagnose those odd problems that Guzzis are sometimes afflicted with and charge only one or two hours of labour.
I know your bike is in good hands, I sure hope you get it back soon so you can join me for ride in the rain.
BTW my '09 has a gear whine as if it has a supercharger but very little clatter. Either I'm very lucky or she's about to blow!

Hey frypan,

Thanks for the post. I do have the GRiSO back and I am happy as all get out with Gord's work......she rides and sounds saweeeeeet!!

I was unaware that Gord had pulled you in to take a look and listen to my bike. He did mention that he had a few other ears and eyes on it which I really appreciate. Good to know that you were one of them. I realize that Gord put quite a bit of time into diagnosing and repairing the bike. I would imagine more than he will be able to claim from MG as part of their warranty service. I really hope that that is not the case as I believe he and everyone at Valley Motos represents Guzzi in the finest manner!! It's been a pleasure to deal with Gord Hill and Gord Mittens at Valley Motos. I have known them now for just over 2 years and have had a good gut feeling about their dealership from very early on. Although I have a limited understanding of motorcycle mechanics and engine repair, in my opinion, they have validated that feeling on a number of occasions in their dealings with me and their intent in ensuring that my bike was repaired properly and made "right" before handing it back to me.

As such, I am quite pleased that I purchased the bike from them and would recommend them to anyone in the area looking at Guzzis. It will certainly be a pleasure to continue doing business with them into the future. It would be nice if they were a bit closer to me, however, on a nice day, man what a ride that is out 16 onto the Trans-Canada Hwy. and into Chilliwack. The valley surrounded by those hills and mtns. is incredible on a clear morning or day!  

Would be happy to hook up with you for a ride someday in the rain . Gotta get some proper clothing for that though. How about a sunny day first if we get a few more? Also, Steak has mentioned that you might be a guy to contact locally re. a good map for the GRiSO. She seems to run quite smooth now and as I said, I am quite happy with her but perhaps we can have a chat about that sometime.

Cheers

my 09 used to have a loud gear whine but I fixed it with better ear plugs

THAT is funny.

Hmmmmmm. Wonder what happened to 1151?

Bill

Hey Bill,

Still here and still on the GRiSO. I haven't logged in as much but still take a quick look around every now and again. Hope you are doing well and enjoying life. Been out on the bike yet? Shouldn't be too much longer for those of us in the NW as things are starting to dry out and warm up a bit more.

Had a nice riding season last year. The only issue I had was with the bike blowing fuses upon start. Would generally happen after a rain. Anyway, still need to get that looked at.

1151

1151 wrote:

Hey Bill,

Still here and still on the GRiSO. I haven't logged in as much but still take a quick look around every now and again. Hope you are doing well and enjoying life. Been out on the bike yet? Shouldn't be too much longer for those of us in the NW as things are starting to dry out and warm up a bit more.

Had a nice riding season last year. The only issue I had was with the bike blowing fuses upon start. Would generally happen after a rain. Anyway, still need to get that looked at.

1151

GRiSO's are allergic to water!

1151 wrote:

Hey Bill,

Still here and still on the GRiSO. I haven't logged in as much but still take a quick look around every now and again. Hope you are doing well and enjoying life. Been out on the bike yet? Shouldn't be too much longer for those of us in the NW as things are starting to dry out and warm up a bit more.

Had a nice riding season last year. The only issue I had was with the bike blowing fuses upon start. Would generally happen after a rain. Anyway, still need to get that looked at.

1151

Howdy. Missed your last response.

Have heard George's water-allergy comment from others, but mine has been a(n unintentional) mudder on multi-day rides with no electrical issues. I got miserably wet, but the GRiSO shook it off with unflappable poise.

My only electrical gremlin has been the very occasional 15A ("B," I think) fuse blowing. Mebbe three times in 6+ years. R&R'd and on my way. If more frequent, I'd be worried. Ignorance is truly blissful.

Bill