Post rollerized ride report

So......

A tad over two years ago I was reading some forums, somewhere, and I learned about the dreaded flat tapped failures of the 4v engines. I knew I had one of these so I inspected and saw a small shiny spot on the lifters where it should be dark as a black hole. So after some time thinking about it and considering my options ( #1 ignore it, #2 get some .035 tool steel, machine the lifters down .035, and silver solder or braze a hardened cap on each lifter} I chose to bite the bullet and get a roller kit.

I installed the kit and parked the bike in a shed because I had a ton of other things that needed doing. I opted to use the thickest head gasket of the three provided in the kit because the engine would pink/ping occasionally under load in the summer.

Two weeks ago I decided it was time to get the GRiSO on the road again and i pulled it out of the shed and into my new work space. I had a leaking fork seal so i got the parts from AF1 and tackled the job myself. I had to make a tool to compress the spring and another tool to instal the seal. The forks went back in without a fuss with new fork oil.

This week I got insurance and the registration done and i replaced that pesky airbox drain tube that broke and fallen off.

Took the bike out today for a 100 mile ride but only a couple miles from my house the engine started running off at a red light, like it had a mis-fire or was running one one cylinder. Light turned green and I gingerly rode away with the engine clearly not running right. After a minute it clears up and runs like it should. I don't feel comfortable taking the bike out in the sticks now so I tool around town, stop at a auto parts store for a bottle of fuel injector cleaner and dump that in the tank. I just put in fresh gas. The engine is still running as it should but the problem repeats after I leave a motorcycle shop for a liter of fork oil (I got two airheads that need attention next). Again the problem goes away after a half mile and the engine is running as it should.

I get home and start looking over the bike. I notice two clamps that secure the boot between the throttle bodies and the short manifold runners that are bolted on the head are loose. I tighten them up. The engine is still running ok.

I'm perplexed now. An intermitten problem, it comes and then goes away. I'm going to ride it around town tomorrow and see if the problem comes back. i don't have a clue what is causing the problem. The only thing i can think of is to go back and check everything and do the basic maintenance. I ordered new plugs with the roller kit so I'll put them in. The bike only has 10k miles so I doubt the plugs are bad. I have a Kat-Dash Harmonizer (designed by the late great Grok) and mercury sticks so I may as well synch the throttle bodies. Im not going to touch any of the screws on the bodies, just the linkage.

i didn't hear any pink/ping so maybe lowering the compression ratio a tiny amount helped but it was cold today so I wont really know until the summer comes to see if that problem went away.

after re-reading my thread of installing the roller kit, it looks like I should do a remap

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looks like another science project

When you removed the plug caps did you pull them off or lever them off from the top?

Also, yes, you need to remap and tune the bike. Tuning has been covered extensively before. Have a squizz at my Throttlebody video before you start messing around with the throttlebodies.

Use of both Guzzidiag and the 'Reader' and 'Writer' tools are also well covered. You will need them, cables and a laptop to tune and remap your bike along with a manometer of some sort.

Thanks Pete,

I don't remember how i removed the plug wires. i learned long ago not to pull on the wires so I'm sure I pulled on the cap somehow.

I think the best thing to do is take the tank off and check everything. Maybe even check the valve lash.

The problem may be as simple as water. I washed the bike two days ago and there could be water getting onto the plug wires and then drying off.

I read a story of a guy riding to Alaska on an old BMW and he had old plug wires and the salts used to control ice in the winter got on his plug wires was shorting out his ignition system.

(Sigh.) this stuff has all been covered many times.

The plug caps are very fragile. You never tug on them from the top. Use a long, thin screwdriver through the cooling tunnel above the exhaust manifold to lever the cap off the plug from underneath. Once it is *Unlatched* from the plug it can be wriggled off from above by hand, no pliers!

Yours obviously have been compromised, one of them at least, and the spark is jumping to earth through the torn rubber of the cap boot. Replace the caps with SB 05 E or F caps from NGK. Which you use, E or F suffix will depend on what top there is on the electrode of the plug you are using.

While happy to go through this stuff most of these issues are listed in the tech section of the board and a couple of hours of reading will bring you up to speed on most of the common 8V/GRiSO issues.

I often read this shit about the weedy plug caps, replace with NGKs like what he said then you can yank to your hearts content.

OEM plug wires $86 each

I'm definitally testing them before I replace

Took the bike out for a ride today, about 2 hours. Bike ran perfectly except for about 5 seconds in the very last mile at a red light. So there still is a problem. Its nothing to panic about. I'm going to remap and check the plugs and wires.

Best to do this after dark.

Remove the plug cap covers. Start the bike and watch and listen for the spark *Snapping* to earth. Manipulate the caps a bit with a pair of plastic tweezers or well insulated needle nose pliers if needed, don't pull or pry, just gently twist. Chances are you'll see the spark jumping to the rocker cover or plug tube. The spark will always take the path of least resistance to earth and jumping past a damaged rubber boot is much easier than trying to jump between the plug electrodes in the hostile environment of the combustion chamber.

The $86US price tag is why the SBO5E/F caps are recommended.

Both plug wires ohm to 4.94k ohm and the other is 4.93 ohm. I wiggled them and the value didn't change.

So I think the wires are ok.

Then I try installing the left plug with a new plug and it shears off in the head. Great

book says 22 ftlbs and I was at 20 and the stupid new $16 plug shears. I got the plug on my bed right now and the threaded part is still in the bike. I'm on my way to habor freight for an ez out.

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wtf

shouldn't have used a torque wrench, just go be feel like i always have before

Yep. Never torque a spark plug.

The fact the leads show the same resistance doesn't mean that the insulating sheath is OK. Yes, if the resistor is bust it will show open circuit but otherwise the cable itself may be fine but if the spark is, as I suspect, intermittently arcing to earth then it won't be firing the charge.

got the threaded plug bit out

i think the wall thickness was thinner than it should have been. it started yielding at 15 lbs I think.

I put the old plug in and started the bike with the lights out and didn't see any arcing.

still a mystery

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Mate, please, listen.

Damage to plug caps that have been removed incorrectly is very common. The symptom it exhibits when this damage has occurred is exactly the sort of condition you are experiencing.

A pair of NGK plug caps will set you back $20 at a guess and I'm pretty much certain they will fix the issue. Why do I think this? Because I've been working on 8V's since 2008 and during those years I've seen many, many bikes with this problem and in every case changing the caps has made the issue vanish.

Could it be something much more unusual or esoteric? Yes, possibly, but the simple fact remains that the really simple, cheap, option you have had suggested to you repeatedly will almost certainly cure the intermittent misfire.

Pete,

i'm listening to you but i like to do my homework first before choosing a path. And I got other things to deal with. I have a rental property that needs a gas line replaced. Thats going to require about 110' trench at 18" depth. The plumber's quote is $5k to do everything so I'm going to dig it myself so maybe I can chop that estimate in half. I want to take a trip to Vermont when the ice is clear so my TDI needs to be prepped. My work truck is a Yukon XL and it needs shocks, a door latch, power steering pump and a starter. i need to start working on my taxes.

The GRiSO is not my biggest priority but I'm finding time to work on it. Today i inspected the plug wires and the connections to the coils and plugs. i ran into a problem with that plug failing. Fortunately I was able to get it out without resorting to removing the head. i lubricated the connections with dialectric grease and put everything together and the bike fired up.

I retired early from the aerospace biz.  We learn early to take things slow and be methodical. Maybe you remember that Quantas A380 that had an engine fail. The engine was a Rolls Royce Trent 800 and part that was part of the oil system failed. It wasn't a design problem but a manufacturing problem. 30 years ago I used to work on nuclear submarines repairing ball valves.

I found the NGK plugs you recommended on Amazon so next week I'll order them with another plug and the Yukon parts I need.

hipower wrote:

Pete…
…I retired early from the aerospace biz.  We learn early to take things slow and be methodical…

I don’t think I have ever commented here but I don’t think I’ve ever read something so thought provoking as this particular thread.  

highpower :

That guy up there, “Pete Roper”, I don’t know him nor have I ever met the gentleman, but I do know that he’s a professional mechanic with his own shop, for a very long time.

I tell you that he is 100% correct in what he has told you. In fact, he’s pleading with you to save you from yourself. He’s not guessing. He knows for sure, and he’s telling you the truth.

I’m sure that the first time that he encountered this issue, like you, he too was “slow and methodical”.

Funny thing about mechanics is, the more they see incarnations of the same problem with the identical proximate cause, the faster, more methodical, and adept they become at diagnosing and repairing that particular problem with a success rate of about 100%.

That’s what a “professional mechanic” really means.  

When you are ready and able, replace the ignition caps as he says, and your problem will disappear like a fart in the wind.

I know this, because like him, I am a professional mechanic with my own shop, and I’ve been at this a long time too.  

He’s telling you the absolute truth.

Oh, one more thing - dielectric grease is never used between contacts in a circuit. It is an insulator, not a conductor.

The only place you would use it is on a Q-tip, lightly swabbed on the inside of the rubber boot of the ignition cap that covers the spark plug porcelain insulator, as a lubricant to ease removal of the boot at a later date.

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I dreamed about this last night and added this:

Also, about

hipower wrote:

I have a Kat-Dash Harmonizer (designed by the late great Grok) and mercury sticks so I may as well synch the throttle bodies. Im not going to touch any of the screws on the bodies, just the linkage.

This is incorrect, and you are driving full speed off the cliffs of “sorrow and woe”.

You need to read up and fully understand the “hows and whys” of Moto Guzzi FI / Throttlebody setup, and what a TPS reset is and why it must be performed during this procedure.

It’s not intuitive, nor is it like most other motorcycles and you can very easily screw things up royally.

Please, for your sake.  Relax and trust that some very skilled and knowledgeable people are desperately trying to help you from yourself. You might want to let them.

Good Luck.

Listen to Pete he is giving knowledge, respect his advice. I have been an aircraft A/P for 45 years.
If I could reach through this computer Id do what I do with every new guy I get. Smack you on the side of the head and tell you to Fing listen .

The old adage comes to mind.

When you hear hoofbeats look for the horses, not the zebras...

That said, there's no real harm in dicking around either.

dum dee dumdum...

there is a lot to unpack here..

I ordered the plug caps and one NGK plug from Amazon and they are in my hand. The wire I got from a place called LowBrowcustoms so I'll give them a plug.

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I forgot to order a wire crimper so I placed that order yesterday and it will be here next week some time.

I decided to make new plug wires.

I am sorry nobody bothered to tell you precisely how to do this. I don’t normally come here often, so I didn’t know.

You don’t need new wire nor crimpers.  

The short occurs in the cap portion, not the wire itself. Your stock wires are almost certainly 100% just fine.

You cut the cap from the existing wire, slide the cap seal over the wire, and then screw the cap onto your existing wire. Then replace the cap seal over the plug cap.

The photos and explanation here will give you the knowledge you need to fix this issue.

You are spending $$$ you don’t have to.

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Still have my originals at 23,000 miles and 8 years and pull them from the top with a wire tie around the cap. But, I’m careful because I’ve been warned here. I suspect if I hadn’t been I would have had a problem long before now.

I also use a wide tiewrap and most last around 35Kmi, then I put on the NGK with a little tiewrap on it that tucks right in the area. Next time I work on that customers bike it's easey to pop up.

I finally found the time to get back on this issue. It wasn't the plug wires. It was a kink in the fuel line. I made two new wires and that didn't do anything so I started looking elsewhere. Without any idea where to go i just started going backwards from my rollerization repair. I got the tank partially off and saw the fuel line and knew I probably found the problem. So I got the kink out of the fuel line and put the tank and battery back on and the engine fired up.

Today I took a couple hour ride to Sonoita and the bike ran fine without any hiccups. Problem solved

If you kinked the hard plastic line I would keep an eye on it, it could crack after a kink.