Another one bites the dust

In the middle of sorting out the track stand bobbin crisis :-); and as part of 24,500 miles or 40kkm service (already done all the fluids) I decided to check the tappets anyway - despite bike riding great and no worse than normal engine noise. They were replaced in August 2013 before I bought it by MG dealer in UK but despite rollers being available then, they just re-fitted flatties. Sadly RHS inlet and exhaust clearances could drive a bus through never mind over triple/five times service gap. LHS exhausts also way big and only the inlets normal. So decided to stop riding and rollerize now rather than in late autumn despite I suspect engine is already showing other signs of wear (slight smell of burning lube wafting past me when I pull up at traffic lights but no visible smoke haze yet, highish oil consumption, bit too much metal paste on sump plug magnet). Will look at bores for glazing & ring gap when I pull it down before I decide to panic...

Anyway, since this is a 2009 ZGULSE A5 it should be a straight kit C. But reading and liking sound of Pete's suggestion about going Kit A and adding later ZGULSG01 valve springs, spark tubes and replacement covers to have less oil leak chance & to avoid replacing valve guide oil seals (prices are identical for the covers here),I looked at that.

One question I have is that the later diagrams show the later models have a different cylinder head as well. Just checking whether this affects the possibility to use Kit A plus later covers in case they changed anything that requires different cylinder head gaskets or if the cover won't fit the head ? Want to get this done fast to catch the UK summer weather big riding window which is somewhere between 1400 - 1500 on a few random days somewhere around July.

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I'll double check but I thought the head castings remained the same? I'll check tomorrow. Bear with me.

Pete

Meanwhile, love your windows!

Hi Paul
Boy, that's a beautiful thing ........
Enjoy it and please do not drop it
Stay safe

More intrigue......when they changed the cams and tappets at 13000 miles in August 2013 it looks like they put on the latest cam box (see picture) so I already have the equivalent of an 'A' kit fitted but sadly with flat tappets; with the latest rocker cover; but and at least from the service sheet they didn't pull the head and uprate or shim valves. So over all it's a half mongrel and going back to a kit C will leave me with the wrong spark tube lengths and wrong rocker covers....or with mongrel half full perspective I guess I only need to buy an 'A' kit plus new valves, plus cylinder head/exhaust/inlet gaskets. Now trying to find out if they remember what they did in detail ...

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Forgot to add...I'm guessing there is no way to check what valve springs are fitted ?. If they changed the valve springs at same time but didn't make notes, I could end up shimming the uprated valves ........feels like I have to buy uprated valve springs just to ensure I end up in the right place - or am I missing something in the fog of despair ?

No, the 'Floating' camboxes were another simple improvement. No need for a 'C' kit or earlier rocker covers, just an 'A' kit as long as your bike has that top end, it post dates the need to pull the heads.

Pete

Thanks Pete. Since my bike was born in 2009 and pre-dates everything, does that mean they must have put in uprated valves (and so must have pulled the heads) to fit the floating box though ? Sorry if this is (another) daft question BTW....

If yours is a 2009 there is some seriously weird shit going on there. The 'Floating' rocker covers with the short plug tubes way, way post-date 2009 manufacture! From memory it would have to be somewhere around mid 2011 that that system was adopted, even later maybe but certainly not 2009!

The only explanation I can readily come up with is that your original tappets went tits at some point and the entire cambox/rocker cover/plug tube set up was swapped out before the advent of the roller tappet intervention!

The importer should have a record of any previous WARRANTY work but anything else, if paid for by the PO, may be unrecorded. I'd at least ask but the Pommy importer seems particularly obtuse WRT these issues........

Pete

Yes, originals went tits up in August 2013 at 13k miles and presumably the 'kit' to fix it came with the short tube and replacement cambox....I'll try and find out what exactly they did else it's a replacement set of valve springs 'just in case'....

Pulled LHS cam box this afternoon and found the remains of the tappets. So badly worn they are bright metal and can see/feel curve of wear across surface - I hate to think the volume of metal thrown into the oil (gulp).....cams look distressed but not as wrecked as the tappets. No surprise for members to see yet more pictures but here they are anyway...next job to see whether I need valves changed before I start ordering bits but have pulled exhaust already in anticipation.

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Grab an 'A' kit, four Spring shims, four valve guide oil seals, inlet and exhaust gaskets and a pair of head gaskets. That'll do the top end. For the bottom you'll need sump gaskets, a few O rings, big end bolts and shells. You'll have to wait until you have the sump off to order them as the cranks are colour coded. With that much damage you have to inspect the bottom end.

Pete

Thanks Pete

Does anyone know the part number for the shims ? They live inside a kit 'c' but I can't find anywhere that lists them as normal spare parts.

Here is the number I used to get mine. Inlet vale spring shim
877847. If you google "Moto Guzzi 877847" that should find them

I found them thanks to TLM NL ; part nos are 877847

Paul

Thanks - messages crossed...

Attaboy.

My flat tappets were not showing imminent signs of wear, they looked liked shiny black ceramic discs. 08 5k miles. Been rollered anyway. glad I took the advice/warnings meted out on here.

This post highlights the issues perfectly WTF some uk dealers can not see this is beyond me.

Interesting given the huge amount of metal 'missing' off the tappets.....pulled the sump and almost perfect except for emulsion in one corner. Digging into the base with a cotton bud yields some very very fine metal sludge but not much. Looks like the wear is in very small particles rather than flakes and the small bits probably get carried by oil viscosity and dispersant into the disposable filter - also suggests grinding paste running around.....

Are you pulling the rod caps for a looksee?

That's the plan, main issue is bike is on the floor and main stand so not easy to get to ....already ordered the two gaskets for sump and oil plate.

WOW, all done and really easy job. Only 'wondering' moment was RHS refit where it seemed cam chain had gone around 1 tooth at bottom when I lowered it and re-lifted it whilst removing head - I had cable tied chain hard to sprocket so it didn't change at top end. One of those moments wondering if I had moved crank or if chain moved....anyway, shuffled chain along a sprocket and all lined up again so rebuilt it.......to the point though; on careful restarting engine (gear oil over cams,pre-filled oil filter) it just fired up and it was so QUIET I am amazed. short hop up and down the street then dropped the oil again & changed filter again (just in case). Waiting for rain to stop so I can go and really test ride it but compared to original even on day I bought it (2nd hand with first flat replacement just done) there is no top end bag of spanners noise at all. BTW Pete, I didn't do the bearings in the end on basis I couldn't get the new bolts fast enough & didn't want to even see if there was damage (coward in me won). Main odd thing I noticed loads (really loads) of 'gum' forming on engine side of throttle butterflies, inside head inlets and even around inlet valves - probably oil sticking and thickening. And quite a lot of carbon on cylinder head & piston tops (like the old days when used to decoke the heads on my cars.